Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

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matteoprez
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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by matteoprez » Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:36 pm

Hi everyone,



first topic, first question!



But before I start, let me just both congratulate and thank Brian Richman for such a great initiative. Fantastic idea, break a leg!



Ok, now let's start :)

I am a professional Italian, analog photographer living in Bogotá, Colombia.

Developing-wise, I have been for a long time a big fan of Agfa Rodinal, but recently I had to move to Kodak Hc-110 as here Rodinal is hard, if not impossible, to find. After few necessary adjustments I have come to like a lot Hc-110 for many reasons.

However, I've only used it at dilution 'B.'



A few days ago I was assigned a work that required some Tri-X pushing, and 1600 was not enough, so I had to go up to 3200.

Once getting ready to developing those two rolls, I was very surprised to find out that I could not get much information over this combo, i.e. Tri-X 400 pushed 3200 with Hc-110 dilution B.



I have checked the Massive Dev. Chart (digital truth,) Dev It!, FilmDev.org, and a few forums but to be honest I didn't get much luck. However, I did contact on Flickr one of my old contacts, and was advised to go 'dil. H' (1:63) and pretty much do a semi-stand developing. He told me to use "... dilution H, agitate normally for the first 30 seconds, and then simply invert the tank 2 times every 5 minutes thereafter. 30 minutes total @20 degrees C. It's kind of a "semi-stand" method."



The one doubt I am having on this suggestion is that I'll be using the 'classic' Paterson tank, meaning: the one that holds 2x 35mm rolls. Hence, with dil. G I can put 5ml syrup and 575ml water (total 580ml.) And I am aware of Kodak suggesting a minimum of 6ml of working solution.



Any idea, suggestions on this issue? If so, I'd be greatly appreciate your help. Please, do remember that I can only use Hc-110, and that Tri-X was pushed at 3200.



Thanks!



Matteo Prezioso

https://matteoprezioso.tumblr.com

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sanchell
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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by sanchell » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:48 pm

Greetings, Matteo.



The choice of film and developer. Tri-X used to be the BEST film for pushing, until Kodak changed the design of the film, moving it towards T-grain construction. Second, neither Rodinal nor HC-110 are ideal for pushing film. A better choice would be D-76. An even better choice would be X-tol or Ilford DD-X.



I have found that Ilford HP5+ pushed to EI 3200 and developed in DD-X 1:4 is the best option. I use 75F for 18 minutes with agitation for 10 seconds at 1 minute intervals. The results are far superior to anything you will obtain with Tri-X and any developer. Have a look at the pushed photo on page 53 of the 3rd ed. of the DCB. In any case, the only way to know for certain is to expose and develop a test roll prior to committing to an assignment.



If DD-X and HP5+ are not available in Bogata try Tri-X in D-76. For test purposes only try my time and temperature with HP5.
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matteoprez
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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by matteoprez » Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:11 pm

Hi Sanchell,



thanks for your quick reply.



Interesting how you mentioned the HP5 & DD-X 1:4 combo, I already had heard about it, and will make sure that on my next assignments requiring such speeds, I'll go with them.

But right now am 'stuck' with Tri-X & Hc-110, so that's all I can use at the moment as I'll have to hand in this work in a few days, and that leaves me no option that going with what I've got.



But thanks again for your help, I'll give that a try!

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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by sanchell » Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:07 am

If you can find D-76 try using it undiluted. If not, then get some DD-X and HP5 for next time. Good luck.
Do it in the Dark,

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darkroommike
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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by darkroommike » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:19 pm

Wow, even back in the day Tri-X was rarely pushed more than two stops, that's EI1600, and personally i don't consider HC110 to be a "high energy" developer like Acufine, Microphen, or Rodinal. That said, if you want to try semi stand development in a Paterson tank, process only one roll at a time in a two roll tank, that way you can do 1+60-ish; 9ml concentrate + 600ml water (close enough to dil. H) or 1+100, 6ml concentrate + 600ml water and stand develop. I'm not sure what time to use, but I doubt you could over develop with this situation. This would not be my first choice (not even my 3rd or 4th) but it's what you have to work with. [I would also test these combos before committing to client work but that's just me, I like testing.] But if you have a No.3 safelight in a Kodak bullet housing, and a 7.5 watt bulb you could pre-flash the film one stop and then process at EI1600, probably not worth the extra work.

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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by RichKlein » Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:42 pm

I've successfully pushed TriX to 3200 and developed in 1:1 D76. A little grainy but that is the appeal to me.

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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by matteoprez » Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:33 am

Hi guys,



just a quick update on the issue.



One of my Flickr contacts, 'drasticgroove' suggested me to go as follows: "...I think underexposing Tri-X by 3 stops is going to be a challenge, at least as far as getting any kind of shadow detail. I can't speak for EI 3200, but I regularly expose Tri-X at EI 1600 and develop in HC-110. I use dilution H, agitate normally for the first 30 seconds, and then simply invert the tank 2 times every 5 minutes thereafter. 30 minutes total @20 degrees C. It's kind of a "semi-stand" method..."



Well, I decided to give it a try by giving it a total time of 45 minutes and, although I did change the no. of inversions (3, not 2) the end result made me extremely happy. Nice contrast, nice grain; and I do like it grainy, especially with night shots; so that was pretty much was I was hoping for.

I am wondering if there is a way to upload here a few pictures, just to show the result?



Next time I'll give D76 (1:1) and DD-X (1:4) a try. But meanwhile, I am happy everything turned out so well.



Thanks everyone, too!

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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by darkroommike » Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:00 am

One man's sauce is another man's cyanide! I, too, would like to see an example.

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sanchell
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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by sanchell » Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:35 am

The simple answer is that there appears to be a way to upload images to posts. However, being new to using this BB I haven't yet figured it out. As soon as I do I will post it in announcements.
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andynguyen
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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by andynguyen » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:15 pm

i think it depends on your subject matter as well as the requirement of your assignment. people subjects (aka street or even photography) tend to go fine with "pushing" (under-expose & over-develop), because the shadow details aint too important; what's essential is the photos be made at all & the so-called short-comings of the method might even create the "mood" for the shot. on the other hand, scene shots dont usually benefit from the lack of details in the shadows & the exaggerated grains; so for these situation i'd go with the opposite: over-expose & under-dev.

would like to see your photos once the forum allows upload :) or you can post link to flickr or something?

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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by sanchell » Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:36 pm

The forum DOES have the capacity for image upload. Use the Browse button below the message.



I am attaching two images to this post. The first, Live to Ride, was made in 1982, one of my early attempts at night street photography, using a Nikon F. The film is old-style Tri-X, pushed to EI 1600 using D76 1:1 and the hydrogen peroxide pushing formula found in the DCB. I have not found this technique to be effective with the modern Tri-X emulsion and haven't tried it with HP5+ as that film pushes very well.



The second image, Yvette, was made in 2007 using Ilford HP5+ EI 3200 developed in Ilfotec DD-X 1:4, 18 minutes at 75F. I am able to easily make 16x20" prints of negatives developed using this method.



My own experience is that D76 1+1 is one of the best formulas for pushing film, and HP5+ is the best film to use. The only formula I have used that I like better is Iloftec DD-X. However, DD-X is often difficult to find whereas D76 is readily available in most parts of the world. In fact, in the '70s I knew a photographer who weighed out the chemicals for 1 liter of D76 divided them into 35mm film cassettes, and carried them when he traveled. A bit of thiosulfate, and a one or two reel daylight tank and he could develop film anywhere.
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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by neal.niemiec » Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:30 pm

Hi Steven,



i'm a little late to this thread, but do want to verify - in your Developer cookbook vol.2 - you mention early on that HP-5 is NOT a favorable film for pushing, however, in this thread you're advocating that HP-5 & DDX as the best combination for extreme pushes - superior to any combination of Tri-X? What has changed since the book was published? Lastly, if I'm committed to Tri-X - what is the best developer for 3 stop pushes based on the current version of the emulsion?



Thanks in advance, neal

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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by sanchell » Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:57 pm

Greetings, Neal. First, if you're using The Darkroom Cookbook 2nd edition, don't. There are a lot of errors in that book that were made when I was young and careless. Send it to the recycler and pick up the 4th edition.



At the time I wrote the 2nd ed. I had not fully explored the possibilities of HP5+ with DDX. My experience pushing film was primarily with D-76, which I didn't feel worked as well with HP5. However, I have since found that HP5+ and DDX is an excellent combination. I have also found that Tri-X with XTOL works very well, perhaps as well. I don't have a valid time/temp for Tri-X as i no longer use the film. There are many fine photographers that swear by it, but I find it doesn't suit my taste, which is, of course, part of the beauty of film, we have choices. In digital one pixel looks like another.
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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by neal.niemiec » Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:19 am

Thanks for the quick follow-up Steve - (will def be picking up the new edition of the developer cookbook!)



for my purposes - 3 stop pushes are for high contrast indoor stage lighting scenarios. I will have to do some testing ultimately, but your input helps my focus on optimizing.



Look forward to testing both tri-x /xtol combo vs. HP5 / DDX combo in the near future.

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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by sanchell » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:10 am

I would very much like to hear about the results of your testing.
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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by neal.niemiec » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:42 am

Steve - finally getting around to testing some HP5+ & DDX combo you suggested. Albeit I only had to push to 1600 for this, it's still a very nice tonality that isn't all that different from delta 3200 (from my experience). One follow-up question - Do you have any recommendations for prudent sharpening of digitized negatives? not sure how to post an example to this thread?

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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by sanchell » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:52 pm

I don't know what prudent sharpening is. :)



As far as the difference between HP5 and delta 3200, try making an 11 x 14 (or even better, 16 x 20) enlargement from each negative and let me know the results.
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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by perfesserkev » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:48 pm

Hi Neal: You'll want to use an "unsharp mask" type of sharpening filter. The greatest errors in sharpening digital files, whether a scan or a camera capture, comes from to big of a "radius" there. That's the number of pixels on either side of the edge being sharpened that are affected by the contrast change. Slide it to the lowest setting the software will allow: 0.3-0.5. The default is something like 5 on most software. Then use a higher "amount" than the default. Default is about 25. Try 100 to 150 with the radius set low.



That's all for display rather than making a neg, so you may find different settings give you a better result. But that's how I'd make sharpening prudent.
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sanchell
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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by sanchell » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:05 pm

I still don't know what prudent sharpening is. But should I ever be faced with such a daunting task I will certainly follow the perfesser's advice.
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Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by neal.niemiec » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:38 am

Thanks Perfesserkev,



sometimes i feel like it's a fine line b/t under/oversharpening scans, this is helpful.

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Re: Re: TriX 400 Pushed 3200 & Hc-110

Post by Bill Troop » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:38 am

Just a thought about DD-X. As far as I can see, this formula is _in principle_ a liquid version of MIcrophen, that is to say, a D-76-type phenidone-based developer (with the sodium salts replaced by their potassium equivalents for greater solubility). That being the case, I would recommend as possible alternatives any other PQ developer, 1:4, of that type, or preferably, FX-15. If I knew I was going to work at 1:4, I would probably increase the alkali by 10-15%. The only problem with DD-X is that it is expensive. And all of that said, I don't see why Xtol wouldn't work better, but at 1:4 the alkali may be too low. It doesn't surprise me that the HC-110 technique worked, in a pinch, but I would not recommend it. If I have to push, I rely on Steve's practical advice.

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